DESIGNWORKS Vol.09

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Interview with Yoshitake Doi"Revival of tradition and cities of the future"Interviewer: We will present urban commercial facilities and a wide variety of exhibition spaces in this issue. Before this interview, we looked at Tokyo Dome City Meets Port and Cirque du Soleil Theatre Tokyo, which represent out-of-the-ordinary urban functions; and Satsuma Denshokan, a work which is intended to revive tradition, with you. First, I would like to ask about your impressions of Satsuma Denshokan.Meaning of revivalismDoi: When I saw the photographs of Satsuma Denshokan, with a lake in the foreground, I was reminded of Phoenix Hall of Byodoin Temple. Clearly that was the owner's intention. It is also a foreigner's image of Japan. At the Chicago World Fair in 1895, the Japanese pavilion was modeled after Phoenix Hall, and this influenced Frank Lloyd Wright. It is an image of traditional Japan. To take another example, the Disney Building created in Orlando, Florida by Arata Isozaki also faces a lake and has its central part emphasized, with wings extending to the left and right. I remember hearing the comment somewhere that this also presents a Japanese image. It's interesting that this stems from the same lineage. By the way, what other portions were made by traditional shrine carpenters, besides the bracket complexes?*1Interviewer: Traditional shrine carpenters did the finishing carpentry, from bracket complexes to rafters and undersides of the eaves.Doi: Those are places that don't show in the photographs. But it's done in proper rokushigake style [a Kamakura style, with three bearing blocks supporting six rafters]. Since modern technology was used, it is not precisely eighth century Tenpyo roof architecture, but it incorporates the authenticity of traditional shrine carpenters while having modern aspects as well. This approach to symbiosis is clearly divided as to what is above and below the pillars. It is also a type of revivalism, with reference to the medieval one-stepped*2 style of bracket complexes. Europe's Gothic Revival was initially decorative in nature, and in the eighteenth century, it was nothing more than a reproduction of the atmosphere. But later, as studies in this area became more advanced in the nineteenth century, the forms and proportions also became accurate. An authorial approach also emerged. The form includes accuracy in details and harmony of the overall taste. With a profound understanding of the style, it actually becomes possible to introduce a degree of arbitrariness.Interviewer: That seems to be an apt description of Viollet-le-Duc,*3 for example.Doi: Viollet-le-Duc completely mastered the fundamentals. Along with mastery of the fundamentals, he pursued integration of form. This integration is not based on mechanical criteria but an expert's discerning eye. When Viollet-le-Duc spoke of form, he was not referring to mechanical criteria or checklists but an integrated kind of judgment. Incidentally, about a hundred years ago, a great deal of attention was given to "Oriental taste," and buildings were created in forms meant as a restoration of Asian style or Japanese style; but in fact, these forms were not very accurate. There was a debate between modern and Oriental taste; that is, between flat roofs and sloping roofs. However, the restoration advocates lacked a solid theoretical grounding, while the advocates of modernism only insisted on flat roofs. The debate was quite heated but at a low level. And today, about one hundred years later, studies are more advanced and the forms are accurately understood. A modern architect's office can work together with traditional shrine carpenters. Today, if we are determined, we can achieve an accurate type of revival. It's also a revival of revivals. History repeats itself, but we incorporate past antecedents into the present. This may be a somewhat different interior is modern and Western as far as the walls, so it isn't very clear when considering that only the roof is traditional. The line of exterior columns would traditionally have been the boundary between the interior and exterior, but in fact, there is glass inside the columns. In the corridor space, this causes a sense of confusion as to where one is. It's an isolated, third type of thing, creating the sense that a foreign object has gotten in. Speaking of historical architecture, the unity of structure and form goes back to the late Middle Ages. So it's a modern hybrid. If you changed the spans, it would be similar to Sangendo.Interviewer: In the Kyoto head office of Fukujuen, there are glass shitomido hinged shutters which open to the outside.Doi: That is an easily readable kind of composition in which the space is modern, but the texture is traditional. Speaking of Kyoto, I am reminded that the other day, I saw the Isaburo Ueno and Lizzi Collection at the Meguro Museum of Art. Isaburo had strong personal connections, and he invited Bruno Taut and created an architectural movement. It was "Kyoto power." Lizzi was more artistically talented, and he designed things like wallpaper in his work with Togo Murano. It was the fusion of planar design like that of the Vienna Secession*4 with the world of classical elegance that typifies Kyoto. That is also "Kyoto power." At Fukujuen, the lattice formed by the columns and beams of the façade and the lattice of the interior shitomido hinged shutters are consciously placed in a fractal relationship which I find outstanding.Urban venue for natural history and performanceInterviewer: You saw Tokyo Dome City Meets Port, which is located in the Korakuen district of Tokyo.Doi: When I flew back to Fukuoka, I could see Kenzo Tange's hotel from the plane. It is correctly oriented toward the Imperial Palace. Mr. Tange knows the direction of the Imperial Palace even without looking at a map. Korakuen is an ad hoc jumble, but Mr. Tange gave it transcendent order. So as a whole, it forms a park. Tokyo's universities, public facilities, amusement parks, and the like have been built on the basis of Edo, which was a mosaic of feudal lords' compounds. It seems that Korakuen was originally the lesser seat of the Mito clan, and the place where the army stored ammunition. It has been an area with military connections, including samurai homes, the army, Budokan, and judo apparel stores; and now it's a mecca of martial arts and pro wrestling. And that is the background of this amusement park in the city center. Because it is an urban planning park, the line of reclaimed ground is predetermined, and the building is under that line. The approach leads to the top of the audience seating. When viewed from the city, its light cylindrical form appears as a landmark situated at an intersection; but when viewed from the park, it becomes a playful folly. This dual nature serves to effectively link the city with the park. Replicas of ancient circular temples are often seen as follies in Western gardens, and one is reminded of that sort of thing. Looking at the completed facility, one gets the impression that this must have been the only possible solution. Structurally, I noticed that a cantilever approach was used in order to achieve separation from the hall below. I thought that if more emphasis had been given to that cantilever from the park side, showing it in a tricky sort of way, it could have been even more like a folly. In foreign countries, parks are closed at night for security reasons, but this is open all night long. It is something special in the use of urban space. It's like an unseen navel of the city. Korakuen survives because it is a cleverly isolated island, floating on the sea of the city as a superblock.sense, but about ten years ago there was talk of "recursive modernism." The conflict that was simply between pre-modern and modern has already ended, and the process of modernization is being consciously repeated. I think that the interpretation of tradition means revisiting a dialogue with the past. In the approach to modernism that is shown in Denshokan, the target of study is limited but consideration is also given to the whole. Particular attention is given to the columns. To some extent, the bottom part is abstract while the top part is concrete. There is a kind of layering, in which the bottom is completely modern but the top is traditional. Although it may not be so quite clear-cut, the straightforward handling of mechanics is characteristic of shrine architecture. The bracket complexes exist purely as bracket complexes.Interviewer: The bracket complexes are placed as decorations, without having a mechanical role, but somehow this creates a refined effect that is close to that of the original.Doi: So it's like a reversal of "real" and "fake." The columns are "real" in the sense of being reinforced concrete, but they also appear to be wooden columns of eighth century Tenpyo architecture. The bracket complexes are quite "real" in the sense that they were made by traditional shrine carpenters, but at the same time they are "fake" structurally in the sense that they are decorations. The real and the fake are reversed. However, one would have to go to the site to realize this. From the photographs, most of it has the appearance of concrete.Interviewer: The Satsuma "brand" is something that was re-imported back to Japan from the West, and therefore the interior space, with exhibits of Satsuma porcelain ware, makes a point of incorporating Western culture.Doi: So porcelain is forming the interior decoration. That would suggest the exhibition approach taken by art museums and treasure galleries. In Japan, the traditional exhibit space is the tokonoma, and in the West it is the living room or a room with a fireplace. Modern museums take items that originally would have been seen in living spaces, and present them all at once in a spatial catalog. In modern times, Japanese art has been re-imported in a certain sense. A Western perspective has arisen along with this. There is a complex relationship between modernism and tradition. This includes the act of exhibiting urns and containers, and the act of creating bracket complexes one by one with dedication and authenticity. It cannot be a complete restoration, and there seems to be an implied remark that the bracket complexes are being exhibited as objets d'art. The shape of the roof seems to be strongly asserting that the building beneath it is firmly fixed to this place. In photographs, Denshokan appears to be traditionally Japanese, but taking a closer look, it is Japan via the West, showing something Japanese as reflected by the West as a mirror. It is a thoroughly formed expression of this kind of two-way movement, and it provides good food for thought.Interviewer: Seichoji Shiryokan [Seichoji Temple Museum] is a modern building underneath the roof, but on top of that is placed a somewhat iconic, traditional roof.Doi: In its external appearance, there is a clear separation between the modern and the traditional layers. The difficult part seems to be the transitional portion under the eaves of the corridors, which is a boundary between the exterior and the interior. The distinction between the layers is clearly visible from far away. However, the portion under the eaves is made with flat materials. Therefore, when one is walking there, one does not get the feeling of being under a tile roof. The Interview