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factory. Prior to that there were undoubtedly fields and paddies there. In that sense, as in the "Figure-Ground" relationships of Gestalt psychology, a figure is formed in a place that was once ground. And once the figure is formed, a new figure is formed in the surrounding area. When a factory disappears, that place becomes ground. And then another new thing is built there, and when that happens it changes the surrounding area yet again. I'm interested in this type of process. And in that sense, the approach of Sunmarks Dainichi has a great deal of continuity in both temporal and spatial terms. Interviewer: That reminds me of what you said earlier, that the Jori system (the system for dividing and numbering land for cultivated land in ancient Japan) in Nara and Kyoto broke down and the land became fields and paddies, and when it was redeveloped in the modern era, the old grid emerged again. Nakatani: A system that had existed unchanged since ancient times for about a thousand years was suddenly visualized as a certain object beginning in the 1960s. This is something that might happen in a comparatively old suburb. In the case of Kyoto, the Jobo system (grid-style urban planning used in ancient Japanese cities) was established in an area that formerly contained residences for nobles for a distance of 60 ken (1 ken ≒ 1.818 meters). The machiya houses were constructed starting from the four corners of the entire area, so as they got closer to the center of each of the sides, the excess land that was less than the size of one machiya was added on to the houses in the center, so the depth of the houses in the center was completely different from the houses at the corners. In this way, the land divisions in the middle ages continue to have a major impact on modern buildings in various ways. In Osaka as well, in central areas like Senba, Toyotomi Hideyoshi conducted very precise urban planning. This consisted of placing back-split row houses in a 20 x 20 ken arrangement to form a city block, and these remain to this day. Where the planning frame in recent (premodern) times was outstanding, it continued to exist from that point on as well. But nobody knows about this. Interviewer: But from a designer's perspective, is it possible for this type of unconscious frame to be incorporated into planning in a semi-conscious manner?Nakatani: This is a very interesting point, by which I mean to say it's a difficult question. The architect Christopher Alexander*3 coined the term "quality without a name" to express the idea that a thing of quality has an essence that is indescribable and truly cannot be named. In that case, the question is how this quality comes about. There is a direct connection between the things I've been talking about today and this "quality without a name." This is given a name when the designer starts designing. So what should the designer do? I think this is related to the issue of hidden ornamentation in dandyism. In that sense as well, the Tokyo Main Office building and the Osaka Head Office building (the Mido building) are both works of dandyism. The designer began designing and completed the design without any awareness. The important thing is to be able to tell what is valuable. It's the same with the Nippon Steel Kimitsu Works Head Office that we visited today, in which the materials and dimensions of industrial products were used in the design as is. I think this is a process in which not just the designer but various departments in the construction company cooperate with one another, so that things that are normally common practices are fused together and piled on top of one another, with the result that a certain type of quality is formed. There's a terrific quote from Togo Murano in which he says that 99% of a building is the owner's but 1% is his, meaning Murano's, but even he can't do anything about that 1%. The 1% represents Murano's will, but at the same time it is also a critical perspective that goes beyond his own will. I think this is very close to what Loos said about the ambiguous view with respect to ornamentation. Both Loos and Murano conduct both stylistic architecture and modern architecture, but they both also have within them a critical 1% that enables them to view both of these in relative terms. The Problem of No ProblemsInterviewer: What are your thoughts on the approach of large design organizations that have outposts in various cities?Nakatani: To take Osaka as an example, I still remember how impressed I was the first time I walked down Midosuji Boulevard. This is because I realized the tremendous potential of the private sector, not only Takenaka Corporation, but the design departments of construction companies and the design offices of major organizations that had continued working to make this boulevard what it is today. This relates to what I said earlier about dandyism. Osaka has facades that are by no means ornamental in nature, but they are of extremely high quality. I think Tokyo, on the other hand, is a city in which it's easy to fabricate issues. There are undoubtedly some designers that tend to see this as innovation. In Osaka, the ancient grid still remains and is being used. This doesn't mean there is a lack of creativity; it means — and this is related to the "quality without a name" — that there is a "problem of no problems." It's possible that up to now designers have never considered this, but I think it's extremely important. In universities, they tell students that if they can't discover any issues, there's no need to design. The reason is that if there aren't any issues, people are satisfied. The lack of any issues means that various given conditions are in balance overall, and the fact that they cannot be verbalized means they have settled into an outstanding relationship. When a designer is presented with given conditions, if he or she can respond straightforwardly to those conditions, this means that there are no problems, and the designer should build the structure accordingly. But on the other hand, if the designer needs to add "a little something" to that design, he or she will not be able to do so without finding a new theme for the design. I think this is the heart and soul of the design process. Interviewer: Thank you very much. (Interviewers: Tarou Yonemasa, Kazunori Sekiya, Yuko Akiyama, Yuko Taguchi, and Tomoko Okada)*1 Adolf Loos (1870-1933): An Austrian architect, who went to America after studying in Dresden and was greatly influenced by seeing the practical design of high-rise buildings in Chicago. Going beyond Otto Wagner’s functionalist assertion that “Art has only one master – necessity”, Loos declared that “ornament is a crime.” His representative work is the Looshaus (1910), a building shorn of ornamentation that was a pioneering work of modernist architecture.*2 Togo Murano (1891-1984): Togo Murano was born in Saga Prefecture and graduated from Waseda University. Throughout the pre-war and post-war period he produced unique designs that were highly stylistic and ornamental, although their keynote is the ideal of modernism. Representative works include the World peace Memorial Cathedral (1954), and the Nissay Theater (1963).*3 Christopher Alexander (1936-): Urban planner and architect. After studying mathematics and architecture in the UK, he settled in America. He discovered a "quality without a name" in the cities of old, which he introduced as 253 patterns in his book “Pattern Language” (1977).Norihito Nakatani / Researcher of history and technology1965Born in Tokyo1987Graduated from the Department of Architecture, School of Science and Engineering, Waseda University1989Completed Masters Degree in the Graduate School, School of Science and Engineering, Waseda University1989-92Design Division, Shimizu Corporation1992-95Graduate School Doctor’s Course, Waseda University1994-97Assistant, School of Science and Engineering, Waseda University1996-99Visiting Lecturer, Advanced Research Institute for Science and Engineering, Waseda University1999Lecturer in Architectural Design, Department of Architecture and Building Engineering, Osaka City University2005Assistant Professor, Department of Architecture and Building Engineering, Osaka City University2007-Associate Professor, Department of Architecture, Waseda University2010-Chief Editor of “Journal of Architecture and Building Science (Kenchiku Zasshi)” published by the Architectural Institute of JapanPublications“Severalness Event Chains and People” (Kajima Institute Publishing Co., Ltd., 2005)“Compendium of Modern Architectural Theory” (joint author, Acetate, 2004)“Japanese Scholars, Meiji, and Architects” (Ranteisha, 1993), etc.Design worksKhora Hotel (Yokohama, installation)“63” (Osaka, terraced houses Renewal work), etc.Interview